The Effect of Culture: Estrogenic foods

Posted Tue, 05/11/2010 - 19:33 by Melissa

What is the most common non-paleo indulgence? In my experience, it seems beer is the vice of choice. Don't get me wrong- I love beer and it was one of the hardest things to give up, especially since craft beer was one of my big hobbies in college. But in the end, I did notice that the effects of it on my digestive health were very negative. But there is something else about beer.

It's funny because no paleo dude would be caught dead with a carton of soy milk or a tofutti cutie, partially out of fear of soy phytoestrogen.

Mmmm would you like some omega-6 and a bucket of sugar with your estrogen?

But did you know that hops have even more phytoestrogen? "We have identified a potent phytoestrogen in hops, 8-prenylnaringenin, which has an activity greater than other established plant estrogens." Ouch... so much for some foods being intrensically manly. Conspiracy theorists blame the church and say that the Reinheitsgebot beer laws that mandated hops in 1516 (and similar laws in other countries) were to suppress the sexuality of men. It's true that in the past it was common to use other bittering agents. But the truth is that beer made with hops simply keeps better.

BUT this does highlight the fact that it is possible to make beer without hops. If gluten doesn't bother you, they might be worth checking out. Dogfish Head has been making some ancient beers recipes lately, one of which I tried before giving up gluten. Midas Touch is a recipe recovered from analysis of residues of clay vessels from the 8th century BC and is unusual, but richly flavored. I've also heard good things abou the Finnish Sahti made with Juniper berries.

Another set of beers I've tried are these Scottish historic ales made by Williams Brothers. The hop-less options are Fraoch made with heather and Alba made with Scots Pine (my favorite). Both are dark flavorful malty beers that anyone who enjoys craft beer will appreciate.

Man-boobs not included

The history of beer as a healing herbal elixir is explored in Sacred and Herbal Healing Beers, which you should check out if you want to brew your own.

Comments

Hi, just found your blog

by simon - 05/17/2010 - 21:49

Hi, just found your blog through CrossFit NY. Love it. I've been eating "paleo" for a few months now, and saw some rapid initial results, as far as overall weight loss and body composition changes go, but recently that's slowed down. Mostly because, I think I've been cheating too much. Instead of going two weeks at a time, I've been going more like one week, or sometimes less, before cheating and having some pizza, beer, pasta, rice, etc. I'm not eating those things in the amounts I used to, but still, breaking the ketosis momentum.

I recently had a bit of an epiphany though, on one of my cheat days. Instead of drinking a beer, I decided to have a very dry hard european apple cider. I wanted to avoid the beer, not because of the phytoestrogens, but because of the maltose, which is the highest glycemic sugar of all sugars. It's the worst. So I figured, cider would be lesser of two evils, as it's just fructose. Not great, but also not the worst. And it was delicious. It was satisfying, and I felt like it was a really great solution. Obviously not something to do regularly, but if there are ways to reduce the impact of cheating when cheating occurs, then I think that's a positive thing. I'd like to know what your thoughts are on this.

This is why I eat Paleo, and

by Mike - 05/12/2010 - 22:00

This is why I eat Paleo, and drink tequila. ;)
Long live the NorCal Margarita.

So, when I used to eat a

by Jenn - 05/12/2010 - 20:10

So, when I used to eat a sorta-SAD (I've always been health conscious, but flirted with vegetarianism and even veganism for a while), I definitely noticed the effects of soy estrogens. I decided I was lactose-intolerant and replaced all my dairy with soy replacements and ended up with wild mood swings. Went away when I switched to organic, grass-fed dairy (which, incidentally, dealt with my "lactose intolerance" -- I think my symptoms were due to the antibiotics in milk).

That said, not all plant estrogens are created equal. Red clover has high amounts of phytoestrogens, and yet has been shown to be beneficial for women who want to become pregnant, as well as menopausal women, because the balance of different specific chemicals is different than that of soy. But I still shy away from large, frequent doses of red clover infusion.

Anyway, I'm glad I'm a girl, so it's perfectly acceptable for me to have a glass of wine instead of pounding beers :P And dry cider is one of my new favorite things, since I had a vacation in the southwest of France.

If you go down most of the

by Christopher Robbins - 05/12/2010 - 20:09

If you go down most of the page the article is on, you will come upon another research abstract which I think is more important. Briefly: "Hops, an essential beer ingredient, are a source of prenylflavonoids, including 8-prenylnaringenin (8-PN), one of the most potent phytoestrogens. Because 8-PN concentrations in beers are generally low, its health effects after moderate beer consumption were considered negligible. However, human intestinal microbiota may activate up to 4 mg/L isoxanthohumol (IX) in beer into 8-PN. Depending on interindividual differences in the intestinal transformation potential, this conversion could easily increase the 8-PN exposure 10-fold upon beer consumption."

The end result: "These data show that intestinal conversion of IX upon moderate beer consumption can lead to 8-PN exposure values that might fall within the range of human biological activity."

I believe that Beer /

by mike - 05/12/2010 - 11:05

I believe that Beer / phytoestrogens really should be discussed and carefully considered. Microbrewers of course make a superior product but their heavy use of hops, (double hopped ales, IPA's, etc) is really something that i have become wary of. Maybe a concern over phytoestrogens should move people to drink lighter lagers?

Question about

by Geoffrey - 05/12/2010 - 10:29

Question about phytoestrogens, are peanuts as bad as soy? I know they're both legumes, but most of what I can find on them say that they are very nutritionally similar to tree nuts.

They are extremely high in

by Melissa - 05/12/2010 - 11:56

They are extremely high in omega-6, which is why I personally avoid them because we don't need much o6 and too much is inflammatory...plus they go rancid easily. I do know a place in NYC that does fresh boiled peanuts called Baohaus. Those are pretty good if you want an occasional healthier peanut snack.

Do tree nuts not have a lot

by Geoffrey - 05/12/2010 - 12:40

Do tree nuts not have a lot of omega-6?

It depends. Macadamia nuts

by Melissa - 05/12/2010 - 12:48

It depends. Macadamia nuts and hazelnuts probably have the best fatty acid balance, but if you eat tons of any nut you will be getting too much omega-6 in my opinion.

I usually eat a couple of macadamia nuts in a salad or something.

There are a lot of chemical

by Jack - 05/12/2010 - 09:49

There are a lot of chemical compounds in hops that either aren't water soluble at all, or need to be broken apart by a prolonged boil in order to become water soluble.

The 5 minutes or so of research I just did on it suggests that 8-prenylnaringenin is highly soluble in alcohol but insoluble in water.

The study you linked to says that they found 8-prenylnaringenin present at very low levels in beer, but the details of how that beer used in the study was brewed are important. How long was the boil? What was the hops bill and at what point in the boil did each hops addition occur? Would a longer boil destroy the prenylnaringenin? With potentially varying levels of even partial solubility given differing boiling times, this stuff is important. All beer is not identical, chemically speaking.

They don't give those details in the abstract, unfortunately. It stands to reason that you would be more likely to have 8-prenylnaringenin end up in beer that has been dry-hopped, since the hops are still in the wort as ethanol is being created.

Anyway, if you want to avoid 8-prenylnaringenin in your beer then you could either only buy beer that has not been dry-hopped, or make your own beer at home. I'm not convinced that 8-prenylnaringenin in beer is an unavoidable result of brewing with hops.

With or without hops, there is no reason why a paleolithic culture could not have made some type of beer. Look up chicha, which is still sometimes made in South America by chewing the grains or cassava and using saliva as a source of enzymes to convert the starches into sugar.

Anyway, if you want to avoid

by Michael - 05/12/2010 - 20:25

Anyway, if you want to avoid 8-prenylnaringenin in your beer then you could either only buy beer that has not been dry-hopped, or make your own beer at home. I'm not convinced that 8-prenylnaringenin in beer is an unavoidable result of brewing with hops.

Its not, but even if it were its toxicity, like many compounds, is dose dependent.

With or without hops, there is no reason why a paleolithic culture could not have made some type of beer. Look up chicha, which is still sometimes made in South America by chewing the grains or cassava and using saliva as a source of enzymes to convert the starches into sugar.

Not sure how you would categorize it, but coconut toddys are made by taping the sap from a palm tree and within four hours you have a nice fermented brew. :-)

Alcohol consumption has been with us from the beginning.

A Matter of Life or Myth: The Drunken Monkey - Why Humans Love to Get High

http://bit.ly/cJllyo

I think part of the paleo

by LCR - 05/12/2010 - 09:34

I think part of the paleo affection for beer stems from the desire to reduce the social impact of the diet. That is, when you eat differently than everybody else, you single yourself out, whether you like it or not (assuming that friends and family are not paleo). Beer is the last bastion of normalcy to some (I tend to be more lenient generally, inclusive of beer). Beyond this, I agree with others that given the generally reduction in soy-like products on a paleo diet, beer is not such a big deal.

Re all this micro-brewery business, I'll take a Budweiser thank you.

Normalcy? Bah Humbug! - I

by Michael - 05/12/2010 - 20:31

Normalcy? Bah Humbug! - I drink beer because I like it. I could give a hoot about what other folks about what I drink or eat. And pleasure is a nutrient as well.

Re all this micro-brewery business, I'll take a Budweiser thank you.

Just goes to show that "paleo" and good taste don't necessarily run together. ;-)

I hope you can take a little ribbing :-)

Haha touche on the Bud

by LCR - 05/13/2010 - 08:42

Haha touche on the Bud rib

That said, re the normalcy comment, my point is that I can give up things I like -- for the most part -- in the name of health (peanut butter, pasta, sushi), but I draw the line at beer and I would say that the idea of being able to enjoy a beer with my buddies is definitely an influence on that decision

It is little ironic how beer

by Matthew - 05/12/2010 - 05:38

It is little ironic how beer became associated with manliness in northern European cultures, as long-term heavy consumption tends to lead to the opposite.

I’ve never been a big drinker when it comes to alcohol and more often have red wine or cider than beer now when I do. What do you drink now if you’re avoiding any grains?

On the topic of phytoestrogens, have you heard of soybean beer... http://www.realbeer.com/news/articles/news-002494.php

Funny how much phytoestrogens

by DavidC - 05/11/2010 - 23:37

Funny how much phytoestrogens upset people. I've seen people who eat SAD freak out about soy. But if you eat SAD, even with soy excluded, phytoestrogens are the least of your concerns.

At one point I figured out that non-vegan family members were probably consuming more soy than I was, even though I ate tempeh regularly and they didn't know what tempeh or tofu were. Most of what they were getting was soybean oil, lecithin, and other processed soy crap. (I do use a tiny amount of soy milk in a few recipes because I can't do cow milk at all.)

I didn't even think about beer and gluten until I almost drank one at a party last week. Fortunately I've never cared much for beer. Grain alcohols make my lips swell, so I gave those up earlier. Vodka makes me sick. So I guess it's all rum and tequila for me now.

You should consider mead.

by Jack - 05/12/2010 - 22:19

You should consider mead. Nothing but honey, water and yeast. Maybe a bit of lemon juice to tone it down. It is ridiculously easy to make at home.

I have a friend who makes

by DavidC - 05/13/2010 - 15:37

I have a friend who makes mead. Good stuff.

If fermentation supposedly

by Dave from Hawaii - 05/11/2010 - 20:37

If fermentation supposedly neutralizes the phytoestrogens in soy, would it not do the same for hops?

AFAICT, the study was based on testing 8-prenylnaringenin in Rat uteri...

This phytoestrogen can also be detected in beer, but the levels are low and should not pose any cause for concern.

Anyhow, the real problem is not necessarily ingesting any plant estrogens per say...but the fact that soy has become such a predominant additive in so many foods today, the SAD gives everyone a steady, consistent dose of phytoestrogens over a long period of time affects the body.

Of course, that same argument could certainly apply to beer the way some of us drink it.... :)