Diminishing Marginal Paleo?
When I started out on paleo, I used to buy a container of almond butter every couple of days. Some of you might be thinking that it's a lot of omega-6, others might be thinking...what's the big deal? I think at the beginning of your paleo diet you shouldn't worry about omega-6 from whole foods like nuts. You will probably see great improvements, as I did, even on a diet dominated by nuts. I don't want to turn people off from paleo by making these foods seem problematic, but as time passes there might be issues you are still having and it make be worth going closer and closer to the diet of the Stone Age.
I think it's worth mentioning the economic concept of diminishing marginal returns here. The idea is that inputs initially contribute a great deal to production, but eventually the return per individual added unit decreases. It can be a useful analogy in dietary philosophy as well. I'm betting that the very basic first steps towards an evolutionarily appropriate diet are going to be the most significant for us- the removal of soda, candy bars, whole wheat bread, pasta, and other food that's mostly just bad. Beyond that we might get diminishing returns. I personally have cleared up a few minor problems by reducing my intake of omega-6 fatty acids from even whole foods, but they certainly aren't as significant as the ones I got from not eating vegetable shortening and high fructose corn syrup. We all have to look at how close we can get to our ancestor's food and how much is worth it, which can be very individual and can seem nitpicky and obsessive.


But people in the Stone Age didn't have to worry about these things because they simply weren't exposed to them. Nuts were a seasonal food, olive oil didn't exist, and humans simply didn't encounter avocados until we migrated to South America. Even if they are pastured, domestic hogs and poultry require significant amounts of legume and grain rations, so they are going to have very different fatty acid profiles anything our ancestors encountered. One of my friends who processes poultry told me the sad story of a farmer who tried to do pastured chicken without grain/legume rations and they were miserably sickly and thin. Domestic poultry isn't built for surviving on that diet.
I'm not saying that these foods are bad, but if you are on a paleo diet and you are still having some nagging problems, it might be worth limiting them.

This is the diet I've moved to personally. Nuts are there, but I'm no longer eating bags of them. I'm also through with my "lets eat every type of salted/cured pork for every meal" stage. A "basic" paleo diet took care of most of my problems, like GERD, but I still had some lingering IBS issues. Minimizing these foods that are on the borderline made a big difference, but it required trial and error. I've met people who can eat as much bacon as they want, but no tomatoes. When I eliminated nightshades...nothing happened that I could discern and I missed the taste. It just wasn't worth it.
I do think that just because we know saturated fat isn't the worst thing in the entire world means that we should eat as much as we want.
This interview with Cordain points out that while the Inuit were healthier than many modern Americans on an almost all-meat diet, there is evidence they had arterial plaque and lower bone density. I also think Kurt Harris has been a great voice of reason from the other side and his recommendation of mostly animals that eat grass has worked well for me. Probably because I am already thin, I have had good results with a "medium" saturated fat, low omega-6, and medium-carb diet. I don't need to count any calories or do any micromanaging if I eat mostly seafood, coconut, vegetables and things that ate grass...and treat the rest as dessert and flavoring.
What has been your experience?
Edit: Just want to clarify that I don't think saturated fat is bad. I certainly get more than any mainstream recommendation and get much of my calories from it, but I think there is an upper limit to how much is optimal.
- Melissa's blog
- Login to post comments
Post to Twitter


Comments
This is a great blog. I am
This is a great blog. I am really enjoying your scientific perspective. Also this is one of the few comment threads anywhere that I've ever read through to the end as it was filled with lots of insightful discussion.
I did want to correct emily however. Cashew "nuts" are neither nuts nor legumes, they are seeds. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cashew
I'm not sure where seeds are supposed to fit on the paleo diet, but cashews are one of my favorite and I feel less guilty that they aren't legumes. :)
Generally cashews are not
Generally cashews are not considered paleo. The reasoning is that are not edible raw. This comes from the raw food people that claim even the ones sold as raw aren't really raw.
Your pointing out that it is really a seed is interesting. Seeds of fruits are not supposed to be digested, but are designed to pass through the digestive system and be deposited someplace else. Fruits themselves are supposed to be eaten, making them a very paleo food.
Moderation in all things is
Moderation in all things is the key. The search for dietary purity seems to be epidemic amongst the low-carb/paleo blog sphere.
One thing to remember, folks - Omega 6 fatty acids are an ESSENTIAL fatty acid...the problem is ratio. And most of us are aware that the largest sources of O6 in the SAD is PUFA vegetable oils.
If you have a diet rich in O3's, eating some O6 found in whole nuts should be good for you.
Your body needs both 03 and 06 to function properly.
Here's an interesting article regarding the balance of 06-03 and it's seasonal component: http://www.acresusa.com/toolbox/reprints/April08_Allport.pdf
If you didn't describe
If you didn't describe yourself as paleo, and someone sent me this post without attribution, I would have thought I was reading the testimony of a typical WAPFer (not WAPer), as the above are most of the usual "mistakes" WAPFers make when transitioning to a more healthful diet based on the studies of Dr. Price (actually based on his book, since most of his work is still unavailable for public access).
Edit: Just want to clarify that I don't think saturated fat is bad. I certainly get more than any mainstream recommendation and get much of my calories from it, but I think there is an upper limit to how much is optimal.
But do we know what that is? IIRC 50% of the Tokelauans diet by calories comes from saturated fat.
Scientifically, we don't
Scientifically, we don't know. But an individual can certainly know. If you start feeling bad every time your saturated fat level reaches a certain point, then your body is telling you that's enough.
That's why it's important to first get your eating right and then to learn how to listen to your body.
I should have read this
I should have read this before I threw out my almond butter and tahini a few days ago. But I was really overdoing it on those two things. Nuts and seeds make everything taste better to me. I could put tahini on anything. Except maybe for berries, which is what I would mix with almond butter.
Maybe these things weren't harming me much and it was worth the minor health sacrifice for the enjoyment. But I don't like to be so dependent on one type of food. And I haven't felt deprived since dropping my jars of almond butter and tahini down the chute. I think it was just having them around that made me rely on them so much.
Now I'm going to try to limit my nut intake mostly to walnuts in salad and the occasional handful of macadamia nuts.
You threw away perfectly good
You threw away perfectly good food?
I hate to waste food, but I
I hate to waste food, but I needed to do something a little dramatic to change my habit. There wasn't too much left (and I gave the one unopened jar to a friend). And think of all the almond butter and tahini I'll save by not buying any in the future. I was wasting it by over-using it.
Don't fret, Alex. I may have given the environment a sucker punch that day, but the world will recover.
Alex, those foods are usually
Alex, those foods are usually rancid within a few weeks, which is why you should grind them fresh yourself. If he had donated them he would have done more harm than good. Last thing people need is more rancid omega-6...
Grain v grassfed birds There
Grain v grassfed birds
There seems to be some concern about the difference between eating apparently sickly grassfed chickens verses suboptimal fatty profiled vegetarian/grain fed chicken.
What doesn't seem to be addressed is: Aren't chickens, like other birds, carnivores? Would it not behoove us to eat chickens that eat a proper avian diet rather than split hairs about two types of chickens that are essentially malnourished?
It's amazing if you slaughter
It's amazing if you slaughter chicken how reptilian they are. A grassfed chicken doesn't just eat grass, but the insects living on the grass, which they definitely prefer. The problem farmers have told me is that most breeds are adapted for grain and legume rations and also do not forage efficiently. It varies based on breed of course.
If you have a lean pastured heritage chicken it's more likely to not need rations, but I've yet to meet a farmer not using any kind of rations. If I owned my own chickens I would love to investigate breeding bugs as feed. Insects like mealworms can be very efficient to cultivate.
I like to think of it as
I like to think of it as eating little dinosaurs.
Chickens will eat bugs, small
Chickens will eat bugs, small animals, and many other things if given a chance. I do know there are farmers who are attempting to raise chickens without the standard rations (including no soy) that has even affected the raising of heritage breeds.
Hey Melissa, The diet you
Hey Melissa,
The diet you describe is pretty much what I eat now with the addition of grass fed butter and heavy cream, but I relied heavily on nuts in the beginning. Even then my level of inflammation declined rapidly. (I didn't have any overt health issues to deal with.)
These days I'm more omega 6 conscious though, so I try to keep o-6 heavy nuts low. For snacks, I cycle through dark chocolate, coconut milk, pemmican, macadamias and occasionally cashews and almonds.
I'm not sure what my tweaking is accomplishing at this point. Perhaps not much, apart from the value of variety itself.
I'm also adding in some iodine and magnesium as supplements as an experiment.
Christian
Hi Melissa, I came across
Hi Melissa,
I came across your website about an hour ago and have a quick question concerning walnuts. What is your opinion of them?
Still not really sure I "get"
Still not really sure I "get" why avocados are to be consumed in moderation, is it the less than ideal fatty acid ratio?
Also, re fruit/seed oils, within the context of dressings (i.e., uncooked), would you still consider them not so great?
Agreed on nightshades, eggplants are dope.
Kind of surprised to hear you were eating a diet that would allow substantial marginal gains from a transition to paleo.
"Kind of surprised to hear
"Kind of surprised to hear you were eating a diet that would allow substantial marginal gains from a transition to paleo."
My diet was getting better at the time, but was still full of sugar and I struggled with binge eating. I didn't buy cake, but when I encountered it...I couldn't control myself.
Avocados evolved as food for a giant sloth (it's true!). They have some nice monosaturated fat, but quiet a lot of omega-6 too. I often add them to salad.
I don't think it's an issue of some foods being better or worse. It's an issue of what is a staple? I'm never going to completely give up nuts, avocados, or olive oil. But my days of making them a meal are over. That's why raw vegans are often is such bad shape IMHO, which is surprising because they aren't exactly eating Twinkies. Their diet is mostly this stuff- a typical raw vegan lunch often is just avocado, cashews, and oil in a salad.
Another great example is Larabars. They seem so nice (unprocessed and gluten free) and I used to eat them pretty much all the time and sometimes even as meals...if you parse out the actual ingredients they are mostly sugar and omega-6. Not great and it's no wonder my stomach hurt when I ate them and I got canker sores.
A better choice would be a salad with bone marrow melted on it and a few nuts thrown on for crunchy texture. These foods aren't staples, but they are tasty and have culinary value.
Good stuff, thanks for the
Good stuff, thanks for the prompt response.
I agree on nutrition bars in general. Never had a lara bar, but sort of always knew when consuming some of the others (pre-paleo, haven't touched em since) that they were a bunch of garbage. Side note -- I don't agree with the idea that one can make a 'paleo' nutrition bar either; the idea of a nutrition bar is inherently not paleo.
And I think the biggest issue with the vegans I know is that they lack the energy to get much exercise, I am sure it is possible to look fit on a vegan diet.
My friend Pete was told by
My friend Pete was told by his nutritionist that he needed to reintroduce meat into his vegan diet. He has so much energy that he was only sleeping 2-3 hours a night and couldn't sit still to finish writing his dissertation.
I am interested in the Paleo diet because when I when ovo-lacto vegetarian I became sluggish and cranky, but recovered my energy when I returned to eating steak and green veggies.
I would count a chunk of
I would count a chunk of pemmican as a nutrition bar.
A vegan diet is defined by exclusion whereas a paleo diet is defined by foods included and excluded. So there's no real definition as to what vegans as a whole do eat.
While a vegan, I added 10 lbs of muscle over 3 months working out once per week. I also practiced taiji and yoga almost daily. But then I had a vegan diet that is honestly about as good as it can get.
And the energy level thing doesn't pan out. Of all the vegans, vegetarians, and SAD-dieters I know, energy levels are pretty much the same (poor) across the board. Though I'd give the edge to the vegans I know. Don't think it's from eating meat but just being more health conscious and not eating crap like HFCS.
Meat = protein, creatine and
Meat = protein, creatine and other good stuff = strength and vitality
Re pemmican: my point was more along the lines of these nut/dried fruit/coca powder/etc things folks shill on paleo blogs (not here thankfully)
You don't have to have meat
You don't have to have meat for strength and vitality. I spent 2 years as a vegan and never lacked for either. Now that I'm eating more paleo and have added fish and eggs while dropping wheat and corn, I haven't noticed any difference in physical vitality. (I chart my workouts, so I'd notice.) Maybe that will kick in later, but so far no difference. I hope so, actually. I'll take a vitality boost any day!
Other than mild digestive problems and depression, both of which actually improved for the first time as a vegan, I have no health issues. My concern is long-term, optimal health and a vegan diet can't provide that. My vegan diet was carefully constructed and was high fat, moderate carb, moderate protein.
What I did notice within days of adding fish was a huge increase in mental alertness, creativity, and focus.
I don't think there's anything wrong with the bars you mention, provided they're used very sparingly (like almost never) and in an appropriate context. For instance, I will need something like that this summer when I go to a major conference and have very limited food options and eating times. I'll need something quick and suitable, if not ideal. I have a problem with those things being marketed as acceptable on a regular basis.
"What I did notice within
"What I did notice within days of adding fish was a huge increase in mental alertness, creativity, and focus."
Were you consuming algae oil as a vegan?
Algae oil? No. Had to
Algae oil? No. Had to research that just now. I'd only heard of using algae as a bio diesel.
Took a flax seed oil supplement everyday, though.
And I was taking a small fish oil supplement for six weeks before I started eating fish again.
Fish likely improved my Omega 3:6 ratio dramatically since it replaced a high Omega 6 meal (nut butter on rice cake).
I take vitamin D in the winter, B12, and oils. Soon, it will be only D and oils. Eventually, hopefully, only D. A healthy diet shouldn't require supplementation. Supplements, to me, should be for those with health problems/risks who have extra need of something.
Very interesting...I will be
Very interesting...I will be interested to hear what the long term effects are.
I sometimes will grab a larabar when I have no other choice at some conference, but I used to buy them in bulk at Costco....bad bad idea.
Dr. Harris wouldn't agree
Dr. Harris wouldn't agree with your assessment of saturated fats. He would say that Saturated Fat > Monounsaturated > Polyunsaturated. Saturated fat isn't just "not very bad" for you, it's actually optimal. This is due to the stability of the molecule leading to its resistance to oxidation. It's actually chemistry 101.
Keep in mind that all, (or at least nearly all) tribes that have been discovered to have perfect health were on all meat diets.
I think also to clarify I'm
I think also to clarify I'm not dissing SFA, I'm just saying there might be an upper limit to optimal consumption, which I hit last year when my friend slaughtered a rather large pig and paid me for some services with a large portion of it. I ate mostly pork fat for nearly a month. I didn't gain weight and I wonder if it prevented me from getting sick this winter, but my athletic performance was much lower and my stomach was a little off. If I could do back it time I wouldn't change anything though, because good pork is seasonal and I think it was a great way to prepare for the winter.
I wonder if activity levels were lower for HG in the winter too? I wouldn't be surprised if N. European paleolithic peoples gorged on massive amounts of fat in the fall, when wild animals are usually fattiest.
I think also to clarify I'm
I think also to clarify I'm not dissing SFA, I'm just saying there might be an upper limit to optimal consumption, which I hit last year when my friend slaughtered a rather large pig and paid me for some services with a large portion of it. I ate mostly pork fat for nearly a month.
How do you know that pork fat was mostly saturated?
also my question. my
also my question. my understanding is that pork is only 35-40% sfa. carry on!
Is it possible that your
Is it possible that your athletic performance decreased because you were eating so much fatty meat, that you were dipping into ketosis?
Since I was eating only fatty
Since I was eating only fatty animals, I was definitely in ketosis. It wasn't like I suffering though, just felt a little off. If I could redo it I'd be more careful about salt and make sure to supplement vitamin D, even though pastured pork has some.
I remember when I first went
I remember when I first went into ketosis and the aha moment that I had with it. The high yet constant energy level, the full uninterrupted nights of sleep leaving me feeling refreshed in the morning; I want to believe you, but having spent the better part of the past 7 months in ketosis I can't really imagine anyone feeling sluggish on a zero carb high fat diet once keto-adapted.
I gotcha Geoffrey, but that's
I gotcha Geoffrey, but that's my point. I think people only feel sluggish for a little while after first going keto. Once their body is adapted it's over with. I can't speak from much experience though, as I haven't been very scientific in regards to my bouts of low-carb.
If I slaughtered another big
If I slaughtered another big animal or start making more money, it's possible I'll go back to ketosis again, but I think part of the problem is that I don't enjoy eating all meat very much.
Ketosis doesn't decrease
Ketosis doesn't decrease athletic performance... If anything it enhances it. But if you're eating high fat and not in ketosis, you're going to feel sluggish until you keto-adapt.
Going into ketosis can
Going into ketosis can definitely decrease athletic performance for the first couple weeks while you are transitioning. Afterward, you are likely to have improved performance, but the quite a few people have reported feeling sluggish during the transition. Check out www.robbwolf.com
I realize Dr. Harris wouldn't
I realize Dr. Harris wouldn't agree with me :) It's a great fat, but I feel sluggish when it = most of my diet.
"Keep in mind that all, (or at least nearly all) tribes that have been discovered to have perfect health were on all meat diets."
Um, which tribes are these? Cordain and Don Mastesz have done a good job dismantling the idea that the Inuit were in perfect health.
OK, I'll chime in on this
OK, I'll chime in on this interesting discussion
Most pork is going to be as much MUFA as SFA. The problem I have with relying on non-ruminants vs ruminants is the PUFA content. If you were VLC and ate nothing but lard or pork total PUFA is higher than I would like. That, said, I eat plenty of bacon and I love baby back ribs.
Mellissa, if you were very high in SFA and MUFA from whatever meat source, I would be more inclined to blame any sluggishness on starch deficiency than the fat excess. VLC with ketosis is tolerable if I am very sedentary, but if I work out frequently or just do a lot of manual labor or am under stress (who isn't?) I feel much better with about 20% of calories as starch. Compared to the SAD, this is still "low carb" but is well out of ketosis. I actually eat more potatoes and fewer paleo approved vegetables than I used to. I still think vegetables are highly over-rated. My weight also is stable and the same whether I eat 5% or 20% carbs, but if I am really exerting myself I drop weight in an unwanted fashion on 5%.
PaNu, Hyperlipid, Kwaskneiwski are all now on the same page about ketosis. I view it as a desirable state to enhance weight loss, but do not view it as the ideal state to live in. I do not view the marginal environment of the Inuit to be any more optimal in nutrition than it is in climate*. The Inuit and the Kitavans both show the inherent dietary flexibility we have, and that DOCs can be avoided on a variety of different diets. Neither diet looks "optimal" to me, though.
*I live in northern wisconsin (not for long) so I know of what I speak on the climate bit.
It sounds to me like the
It sounds to me like the reason you feel sluggish on it is because you don't live your life keto-adapted. You eat too many carbs day to day to stay in ketosis.
Inuit eat diets that are probably to high in PUFA. Keep in mind that Omega-3s, while good for most because of the massive deficiency in the SAD, are still PUFA, and thus susceptible to oxidation in the arterial walls. The inuit also live in the harshest conditions in the world, so I would not be surprised if they were dealing with a lot of vascular inflammation from the long term environmental stress they were under, similar to that of a hardcore distance runner seemingly in perfect health today.
Of the 30 tribes that Weston Price studied, six of them had perfect health, and they were all eating 100% "herdsmen-hunter-fisherman" diets.
A quick search in NAPD for
A quick search in NAPD for "perfect" reveals that most of them were carb and fish eaters- Gaels, Maori, Aborigine.
I'm sorry, there is very very strong evidence that a 100% VLC diet is sub-optimal and generally not paleo, but VLCarbers are almost vegan in their fervor to defend it. I'm glad I did zero carb for some time to bring balance to my body, but I feel much more vibrant eating higher carb.
It's just like vegans, who always say that ex-vegans "did it wrong" if they had health problems. VLCs on many forums I read say that people who didn't thrive on VLC didn't do it right, did it wrong, blah blah, but when I did it I did not touch carbs and I did give it a long enough to to determine it was not a happy diet for myself.
When I felt sluggish I had
When I felt sluggish I had been eating only meat for quite awhile. It was this experience that shifted me away from low carb.
"Inuit eat diets that are probably to high in PUFA. Keep in mind that Omega-3s, while good for most because of the massive deficiency in the SAD, are still PUFA, and thus susceptible to oxidation in the arterial walls. The inuit also live in the harshest conditions in the world, so I would not be surprised if they were dealing with a lot of vascular inflammation from the long term environmental stress they were under, similar to that of a hardcore distance runner seemingly in perfect health today."
Actually the evidence is that the PUFA in their diet kept them from suffering the effects of plaque because their inflammation was so low.
"Of the 30 tribes that Weston Price studied, six of them had perfect health, and they were all eating 100% "herdsmen-hunter-fisherman" diets."
Which tribes were these?
I know for certain that the
I know for certain that the Maori and Aborigine were not carb eaters, not sure where you're getting that from because Dr. Price's research directly contradicts this. Also, I've been to New Zealand and eaten a Maori fire pit meal so I can back this up with personal experience.
Price's work is easily
Price's work is easily available on the internet and I'm reading it now. He doesn't mention all that much about the Maori diet and I certainly don't dispute that they ate delicious meat, but they also definitely ate tubers.
"
The Māori diet was based on birds and fish, supplemented by wild herbs and roots.
In their tribal gardens, Māori also grew root crops including potato and kumara (sweet potato)."
The Maori also obviously ate tons of fish and also enjoyed seaweed.
Tubers in aboriginal diet
You should also check out Ten Canoes, which has many scenes of women processing roots and tubers.
And guess what all these people were eating- plenty of omega-3 from seaweed, fish, fish eggs, and insects.
I think that in small amounts
I think that in small amounts there's probably a lot that you can get away with if your metabolism is healthy. There's no doubt that I do more than my share of cheating and otherwise eating in what I would consider a sub-optimal way. That doesn't change the fact that saturated fats are inherently protective as compared to "not so bad for you" as you described.
i notice that nuts are kind
i notice that nuts are kind of addictive, especially super salted ones, and especially the higher carb nuts like cashews (which i know, arent a nut and truly aren't paleo as they are really a legume).
question about your statement re-saturated fats being fine but not overdoing it; what in your experience, or from your research, might be the potential negatives to eating high sfa? Dr. Harris basically seems to say sfa foods, such as cream, pastured butter, fatty fish (which is also high in omega 3s), grassfed meats (which i know arent all sat fat, no fat is) are the ideal base of human diets. is your concern for heart health or weight control?
thanks so much for your interesting blog!
I haven't had any issues with
I haven't had any issues with weight since starting paleo, but I do notice I feel sluggish when I overdo dense sources of SFA (pork belly particularly). It's just a personal observation. Also, I do agree with Cordain that wild meat would have had highly seasonal fattiness.
It's hard to overdo SFA on grass fed ruminants meat IMHO. I don't plan on cutting out pork belly, but it has a season according to my farmer, which is autumn, so that makes it easier to limit it. Often when I think I'm getting sick I'll eat something really really fatty and it makes me feel better, but for everyday and for athletic performance, something like braised pork belly makes me sleepy.
Love that graphic! Quick
Love that graphic!
Quick question - where do eggs fit on it? Middle I assume...
Chiming in thanks for that
Chiming in thanks for that graphic - sums it all up!
I guess they are kind of a
I guess they are kind of a borderline case. They are from an animal that eats grain, but they can fit in. I did some egg fasts when I started out and I forgot about them when making the graphic because I'm no longer a huge fan...I ate waaaaay too many. A poached egg on a steak in still good though.
I get the eggs from chickens
I get the eggs from chickens that eat the bugs and other things they are meant to eat. I try to avoid the "vegetarian fed" store-bought ones.